After learning more about the gun laws in Arizona, or the lack there of, I don’t think I will even visit the state and I would advise those I care about to steer clear as well. I was expecting a non-apology apology from Sarah Palin for the crosshair imagery she used in her ads “targeting” Rep. Gifford’s district, but even that was too much to expect. Her response was that she never intended the image to represent a gun sight, and that it was just the normal thing you would see on a map. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a map with anything resembling crosshairs on it.
Several members of Congress are now talking about introducing legislation that would forbid carrying guns near members of Congress. So in addition to having health care that none of the rest of us has, Congress would then have protection from guns none unavailable to the rest of us. Of course the NRA will never allow such legislation to pass so it’s a moot point.
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I read that Sarah Palin’s show on TLC was not being renewed. Hmmm, that’s interesting timing. Perhaps there are some smart thinking executive’s at TLC.
Rush Limbaugh commented that Tucson Sheriff Clarence Dupnik made a “fool of himself”….because the sheriff said that he thought “the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous.”
Limbaugh further said “What this is all about is shutting down any and all political opposition and eventually criminalizing “it”.
Really Rush? Isn’t more about the fact that you wouldn’t get the ratings if you were more civil?
I love a good debate, however debates don’t have to be nasty and life ending.
Somehow I can’t stop thinking about how odd it is that the 9 year old girl that was killed on a hate filled rampage was born on 9-11-01 the day such anger and hate was released on America. It feels like a Cancer from the outside is now starting to eat on the inside.
Yes indeed, the statement by Palin's spokesman concerning the gunsights was laughably self serving and demonstrates what a true weasel this woman really is.
The right wing's signature move is the victim card and they even try to play in this instance. What a contemptable bunch douchebags.
That said, I'm already sick of hearing about this.
If this is to become a learning experience for America, one aspect which has been mostly overlooked, because it is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, is the influence of special interests. Namely lobbying. Specifically the NRA. [Isn't it ironic that it has the same anagram as a program of the New Deal?]
No one across both aisles has the stomach to be burned at the stake by the NRA. Should our government be bound and gagged by one interest? Should our non-enforcement agent citizens have full access to automatic weapons? Where is the sanity of allowing people who are one sandwich short of a picnic to buy guns which can knock off 30 rounds at the squeeze of a finger? Can Clarence Thomas, who by all rights should still be calling white people "master" if he was a strict original constitutionalist, believe that the drafters of the constitution would put a Glock in the same category as a flintlock?
Who would think the safest place to be in America is in an airplane?
It is a mistake to imply that the Arizona killings were politically motivated or were the result of harsh political rhetoric. We will soon learn the Loughner is mentally ill and that finding any motivation for his actions other than his mental illness will be unlikely. Trying to exploit this issue for political purposes is repulsive. If you want some insight into Loughner's mind go to the Huffington Post 1/10/2011 and look at his posts on YouTube.
As flawed as Palin is, in this instance she is nothing but a scapegoat used by the left trying to tie this horrific incident to conservatives or conservative values or pundits or talk show hosts. How quickly we forget that almost all politicians use military or "assault" jargon in their campaigns... They "target" opponents and legislation, they "attack" issues and colleagues. They "out-flank", "gather the troops", and leave adversaries "shell-shocked". Crosshairs on a map outlining a Congressional district are inocuous and this really is a cheap shot at Palin, no pun intended.
Second, the FBI found a form letter sent to Jared Lee Loughner thanking him for his participation in a separate "Congress On Your Corner" hosted by Gabrielle Giffords... in 2007. Mr. Loughner's sick fixation with Giffords predates the most recent election, the Presidential election of 2008 and most certainly predates Palin's use of crosshairs on a map in tea party literature.
Pima county sheriff Dupnik did speak too soon and made a fool out of himself, in my opinion. Listening to his words I get the distinct impression he is talking about very specific radio talk show hosts like Beck and Limbaugh. If he truly felt that the rhetoric was at a fever pitch, he would have made a more blanket statement condemning all sides, not just "some" or "certain" mouthpieces like he did. He is well known throughout Arizona as an opponent to immigration legislation and several times in the past has made comments calling the majority of Arizona's non-Hispanic residents racist or bigoted. He's just as bad as Maricopa county (Phoenix area) sheriff Joe Arpaio, just on the other side of the spectrum. His comments make him sound like a hypocrite and and as an outspoken, unofficial representative of the Democratic party, a sore loser.
Dennis, Arizona's liberating gun laws had absolutely zero influence on this tradgedy. The weapon was purchased legally in accordance with federal law. I'm actually surprised no one in the crowd was carrying a concealed weapon and took this guy out before he got five rounds off. You know what? If we were all to subscribe to your irrational beliefs about Arizona and Arizona's gun laws, everyone at the shopping plaza that Saturday afternoon would have drawn their weapons and shot each other and the death toll would have been in the hundreds.
I'm in Malaysia on business this week. The penalty for carrying a weapon here is death, and simply having live ammunition on you can result in life in prison. Guns don't kill people...people with guns kill people. A semi-automatic 9mm with a 30 round clip? Only in America...the land of the free and the home of the_____. Are you f'ing kidding me!
Try telling the parents of the 9 year old girl who was killed that carrying a loaded assault weapon is your constitutional right. The scenario where 3 or more people get into a free for all over an incident like this is very real. Who would know whom is the perpetrator?
Looking at both political parties and finding fault in either over parsing words is like focusing on the left hand while getting a right hook. Both parties are paralyzed by the NRA.
Suicide bombers of Islamic fundamentalist stripe are different and similar to our brand of political assassin. Humanity runs a spectrum of sanity. There are more outliers than you might imagine. I do quite a bit of cycling. I take secondary roads all over the NYC metro area. There are a lot of psychiatric hospitals, both functioning and boarded up. How many untreated are mixed in the general population. How many are not taking their meds? Or are properly diagnosed?
To argue this a political issue of evil on one side of the aisle or the other is playing the fool's game: it is a pox on both houses. Something must be done about undo influence of lobbies, in this case the NRA.
@ Nik: Yes, one of my favorite aspects of the formation of the United States was the protracted debate between (I believe) Jefferson and Hamilton, over whether to permit 30 bullet clips for their 9mm or to limit it to 9 hollow-points.
@ Woody: I make no direct ink between SP and the shooter who is clearly crazy, but to deny a link between the political rhetoric of the day and subsequent events is, in my view, a very narrow view of how society operates. We all create that climate but only the right is drawing crosshairs on people and using language like "don't retreat - reload!"
@ Nik -- and I've been hearing this argument for years that if everybody had a gun all the good guys would step up and shoot the bad guy before he could do any real damage. Well, why is it that never happens? you have easy access to guns in Arizona. Whee were the good guy last weekend? They were the old people who tackled the guy using only their unarmed arms. Virginia is where NYC gang-bangers go to get their guns; where we're the armed good guys at VaTech?
It seems to me that only bad guys, crazies, and stay-at-home collectors own these things.
After the VaTech shootings, people who are considered responsible members of the political right, actually said that if more students had guns in Blacksburg that it would not have happened. As if somehow here in the Old Dominion you can't find a gun under almost every damn rock in the state.
Always seems like a good idea to give 18 year old college kids guns with live ammo. At my alma mater, Maryland, when they win a big game they wouldn't have to burn sofas but like Iraqis they could go around firing glocks into the air.
There is an acceptance in this country that, while these shootings are unfortunate, the need for us to be as armed as we want to be is more important.
There is a certain pride we living in Virginia can take from knowing we help arm the east coast of the US...much like our country arms most of the world.
Dennis, Virginia like most states does not allow concealed handguns on state school grounds. There is a grassroots movement to change these laws to allow checked, trained and responsible law-abiding students to carry concealed - www.concealedcampus.org Each year they stage a nationwide "Empty Holster Protest" where students wear an empty handgun holster conspicuously on their hip, silently protesting the unarmed victim zones campuses can be viewed as. In the case of Virginia Tech, had there been one or two legally armed students in that lecture hall, I firmly believe the death toll would have been much lower. I don't advocate running out and trying to be a hero, but if you are locked in a room with a psychopath armed to the teeth, you have a responsibility to those around you who aren't armed and are defenseless to put your tools and training to use.
I think a much bigger issue is recognizing mental illness and treating those who suffer from it. It's such a broad subject, however - the stigma attached, public acceptance, cost of care, availability of treatment, etc. Everyone wants to be so damn politically correct nowadays, people are afraid of offending everyone else by questioning one's mental health. But there is no good way of going about it, either. We cannot have the "crazy police", but we can't just ignore people who have readily apparent problems. How do we strike a balance? Do we need to monitor children more carefully in grade school and high school? The community college this guy attended kicked him out and basically said "don't come back until you are cleared by a psychiatrist". Hell, the Army rejected him for being mentally unstable. Why wasn't any of this followed up with? Both organizations told him to get lost and wiped their hands of him. He wasn't good enough for them, but good enough to leave unattended in the general population? There has to be some sort of mechanism triggered by these types of events (expulsion from public school, rejection from armed forces, etc.). We can't just let people like this roam free and jeopardize our lives and our freedoms.
Regarding Woody’s comment that we would “soon learn the Loughner is mentally ill”……
Is that to suggest that there might be a person that would go on a murder rampage that wasn’t mentally ill?
@ Nik -- If more people were armed at VaTech it wouldn't have happened? Well it happened because only the whack job had a rod. What do you propose -- mandatory arming of everyone so the good guys have guns?
The Tucson shooter was thrown out of community college for being crazy; barred from the army for drug use, but had no problem getting a legal automatic pistol in your state. And part of the reason that is possible is that the NRA bribes or intimidates any Congressperson who gets in the way of totally unregulated access to any and all firearms. The common good, common sense and common decency have no role in it.
Legally armed students at Tech might have lowered the death rate by shooting that person before he killed more, but does anyone seriously believe arming college students is a logical solution to gun violence in this country?
If we really are to the point that the only solution to protect people is for all of us to walk around with glocks locked and loaded, then we are no longer a civilized society and we can take our place with many of the other 3rd world debtor nations.
Dennis - I'm no longer a resident of Arizona (still in Dallas), but the shooter passed a federal "NICS" background check conducted by the FBI as required by federal law. This could have just as easily happened in California, Texas, Rhode Island, Hawaii, Georgia, Michigan... State laws don't really come into the equation (minus the 33 round magazine, which are allowed by 40+ states).
I will be taking part in this years Empty Holster Protest. And yes, I do have a concealed handgun permit. State legislature is in session this year and it is said they will be addressing the issue of allowing of permit holders to carry legally on college campuses. If it passes, I will be one of the first in class that day with warm fuzzies knowing I can defend myself if the need arises.
1 Do I sense a disconnect between using the constitution to allow Joe Blow access to assault weapons and monitoring him and restricting his freedoms? Nik, I do believe you are going to get less than a 100% score with the NRA, even if you show up with an empty holster. Go eat a shrimp with its head. It is a lot cheaper than guns. Like smoking cigarettes, you are trying to impress the wrong kind of people.
2 The guy who ended up shooting people from Texas Tower was reputedly a model citizen before he snapped. You cannot work the insanity side of the equation to any satisfaction. It must come from yes, common sense restrictions to automatic weapons.
3 You don't need an AK 47 to stop a crime. All you need is 3 people with Glocks in the fog of war shooting at each other, not knowing who the original shooter was, for chaos to rule supreme.
4 The conversation regarding the Constitution as sacrosanct brings to my mind Islamic Fundamentalists and the Koran. Words have different meanings. Rigidity of the mind appears an epidemic. Even a die hard atheist as me utters, "god deliver us from the righteous."
Our forefathers included the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights for several reasons, one of the most important being that they believed the government should never under any circumstances be better armed than the civilian population. Well, sad to say that is the case now. Sales of new fully automatic weapons ("machine guns") was ceased by bureaucratic regulation in the early 1980's. The use of video footage showing people firing fully automatic rifles while the commentator or presenter talks about awful, horrible, terrible "assault" rifles (which are nothing more than common off-the-shelf semi-automatic [one shot per trigger pull] sporting rifles dressed up with evil black plastic stocks, lighting and sight mounts, tactical slings, etc., made to look like a military machine guns) is intellectually dishonest, and is a tactic many anti-gun rights activists have used to purposefully confuse average citizens who may not know anything about guns. "assault weapons" are not automatic, they are not machine guns, and they are no more lethal than any other repeating firearm made, regardless of what it looks like. You can take a Honda Civic and paint it to look like a racecar, but if you put it in a race against a racecar, it's gonna lose. So lets stop with the "assault weapon" nonsense, it's an invalid arguement.
and I just read something very interesting regarding Saturday's events and one of the heros that arose from the situation. A young man of just 24 years old, Joe Zamudio, lawfully possesing a concealed handgun himself came close to drawing on the shooter but resisted as the attacker was being jumped by other heroes and there were too many innocent bystanders. Google his name and read the stories.
I'm no Constitutional scholar, but that is a novel invention for the genesis of the 2nd amendment Nik, which was intended in fact, to keep citizens armed so that a government-sponsored militia could be quickly assembled.
@ KG: Ken -- you are forgetting Columbine and many similar attacks in America's high schools. I'm afraid we're going to have to start arming 'em younger - say 14. It will be expensive but maybe if we do away with Head Start we can afford it.
Nik, you made my point of view clear; all you have to do with a legal, semi-automatic weapon is to press the trigger to squeeze off one shot. The next one is waiting for your finger, as fast as you can move it. That is more than the GIs had when they waded ashore at Normandy. Your rights end where mine begin. And I have a right not to live in fear of some yahoo with an attitude packing heat.
Do you think this country deserves to run on more than the profits of predatory lending and the armaments industry and its affiliates? What is good for the NRA and Blackwater, or whatever they call themselves now, isn't good for America.
Dennis - exactly. The government (was intended to be) a whole made up of individuals. Of the people, for the people. We have drifted far from that. It's almost as if we are now just subjects party to an elitist ruling class, and must bend to their will. This is what the tea party movement sprang from.
Hankster, as long as there are criminals with guns and bad intentions, I will carry a gun, simple as that. It's not to impress anyone (as a matter of fact, here in Texas if you are legally carrying concealed and anyone even unintentionally notices you have a gun, you can be charged with a crime and lose your permit) and it's certainly not becaus ethe NRA tells me to do so. It's for my own self preservation, as I am the only one responsible for my own safety. Awareness, judgement, common sense and responsibility.
Really, how many school shootings occurred back when we had corporal punishment and high school marksmanship teams? When felons convicted for their crimes went to prison for serious terms? When nearly every state had the death penalty?
I am a firm believer in natural selection and survival of the fittest. But we have compassionate people trying to change or help corrupted minds in uncontrolled environments, letting those with faulty wiring live among the normal in society. We cannot fault them for helping those who need it, but obviously that model is a failure. I would use the example of wild animals abandoning, killing or even eating their flawed offspring, but I am sure I would get jumped on about what separates us from animals, blah blah blah. But you cannot fool mother nature, and instincts are bred into us for a reason.
We cannot keep letting our society slide down this path. No more F's in school, everyone gets a trophy, entitlement programs, success is punished or villified, redistribution of the wealth? Seriously? And then we ask why these sorts of things happen and why some people (such as myself) feel compelled to carry a handgun. Just take a good hard look around for the answer. And Hankster is absolutely right about Blackwater and Goldman Sachs and the like - it's just the other side of the same coin. The ruling class protects the other end of the spectrum and provides them with immunity and legal ways of robbing the rest of us blind, playing fast and loose with the rules.
Tea, anyone?
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