There is a terrific new special running on HBO now called Thriller in Manila. While it focuses on their third fight, in October 1974, the film examines the long relationship between Mohamed Ali and Joe Frazier, their previous fights, the extreme animus between them, and the unusually polarizing quality the two camps had on American society in the last days of the Viet Nam era.Which leads me to a confession: back in the day, if you were young and had even one once of hipness, you had to be an Ali fan. Ali was pretty. Joe was ugly. Ali was cool. Joe was country. Ali was radical. Joe was family values. Ali was fast and creative. Joe was a brute. I rooted for Joe.
This was partly just my contrarian nature, and partly because I didn’t really like Ali all that much. Yes, he had a certain undeniable charm, and I respected his decision not to go into the Army, even if it was the Muslims pulling his strings. But he talked too much for my taste and disrespected all his opponents, which was taken to the nth degree when Frazier gave him a shot to win back his title in 1971. Ali started out calling Joe ugly and progress through gorilla and Uncle Tom.
It was shameful in any event, but especially so since Joe had fought to help Ali get his license back and even gave him money when the ex-champ was broke. Joe deserved better and Ali’s claims 30 years later that he done it, “to sell tickets,” had a very hollow ring.
Then there was Joe himself. What a force of nature. He may not have been the best looking man in the ring, but he worked harder, punched harder, and took more hard shots than anyone, and he never gave up. Really, if it were not for that one weird fight with Foreman, when George knocked him down six times, I think Joe would rank right up there in the top three heavyweights of all times – ahead of Ali.
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I couldn't agree with you more D'Blank. Ali's treatment of Frazier after Frazier almost single-handedly resurrected his career was contemptible.
I have nothing but respect for Ali as an athelete and a boxer. His two ass-whippings of Sonny Liston were classics in the annals of sports. I also have no beef with his stand on Vietnam and the draft. He a great deal of courage and determination in the face of overwhelming adversity.
However, I believe he was the first and driving force behind what we now see as the preening, self-promoting, self-important athelete. It may have eventually happened anyway but he was the first and sports is a lesser institution because of it.
I liked Ali at the time because he was thumbing his nose at the establishment. But Bird is correct; he brought on the era of the self-promoting preening jerk that has come to typify many famous jocks today.
You probably don't become heavy weight champ without a little meanness in your bones, but in hindsight Ali could be a ruthless son of a bitch.
His vicious taunting of and beating of Ernie Terrell was contemptible, as was his treatment of Joe.
Its a blood sport. Ali was in the bag with the radical muslim brotherhood.How can you beat a man senseless in the ring but claim you ain't got nothing against those people in North Vietnam. I just wish that when Norton broke his jaw his vocal chords could of been severed. I wish no disease on anyone but for his handlers to spin punch drunk into some sort of parkinsonian disease is a discredit to all those folks that suffer from that affliction. He is and has been paying the price for his rope a dope anticts. And If I was Joe Frazier I wouldn't talk to him either.He and Cosell were made for each other.
One reason Joe lost to Foreman, the first time, was because he was not in shape. A friend was the lawyer for Foreman at the time. He told me that when Foreman landed a couple of body punches to Joe...he was ringside...they could hear Frazier groan. Midway through the first round, they knew they had the fight. Joe did not see Foreman as real competition and never seriously trained for the fight. Although, he came back a few years later and still couldn't beat Foreman.
We all seem to be in agreement here. Years later I asked Joe about his relationship with Ali. He had nothing but praise for him. When I asked about the taunting he replied,"that was a long time ago."
As far as "the greatest" stuff goes, except for Terrell, Ali never really beat anyone badly.Many of his fights were decisions. The photo of him standing over Sonny Liston is the second best sports pix of all time.The # one pix being Y A Title exhausted & bleeding after a game. I'v had it on my frig forever.
For my money the best heavyweight ever was Floyd Patterson. He would beat the crap out of you, then help you get up. Theres a wonderful pix of Floyd the day after he won the crown hanging his laundary.
My confession,when I saw it was Ali lighting the Olympic flame, I wept.
Geez, I was expecting a different reaction. I thought Gaga, for sure, would be an Ali man. What a shocker. A bunch of old white guys who don't hold Ali in quite the same reverence as the media.
Warrenout -- you may be interested to know that in the HBO film Smokin' Joe also claims Ali's "parkinsons" is the result of the beating he took from Joe.
Ali has Parkinson's disease. There are numerous etiologies of the disorder. The neurodegenerative etiology is the most common but it can also result from repeated blows to the head. Ali's disease is exactly the same as any other patient with Parkinsonism, it just developed in a different way. That said, I was no fan of Ali. There was something about him taunting his opponents that rubbed me the wrong way. I watched him lose to Frazier and Leon Spinks and enjoyed every moment. However as he aged and became disabled I began to appreciate his athletic achievements.
Ali/Clay was in everybody's face back in his prime. He was very good about rubbing people the wrong way. The lesson that emerges from this thread is how time tempers emotions in the beholder. When he lit the olympic torch I got teary and said to myself, this is a great American. However, he was complicated. There was not boundary lines between talent, showmanship, ego and bully.
I was introduced to Ali at a dinner in New York maybe fifteen years ago and I felt horrible for him. He was shaking and mumbled something to me when we shook hands. I was a huge boxing fan growing up...loved the Johansson Patterson fights, tunder and lightening versus Cus D'Amato and Floyd...but meeting Ali that night made me feel mortal.
My emotions towards him over the years went from awe, to disgust, and then to pity. You don't want to admit that the idols of your youth were flawed, which I came to realize, but you really don't want to feel sorry for them as they become old and decript.
Although I still believe his first win against Liston in Lewiston Maine was fixed. I think the money was behind Sonny in the second fight and Ali took him.
Ali was & is a hero to me. I dont care who was behind it he told the draft board where to get off. It would have been his ass in jail,which was a long way from burning our library cards.
Smokin' Joe may not be as nice as we think. Call me a gorilla, screw you, I gave you Parkinsons.
I miss boxing.I cant tell you who is the champ now in any division. One of my sweeter memories is listening to Patterson & Johansson on the radio with my old man & brothers.
True sport, one on one.Two men enter, one man leave.
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